The Family Guy: The Navigating Disruption Podcast

In this episode:

Join us as we delve into the early memories and foundational experiences that shaped Frank Bozzo, Vice President and General Manager of CHEP Canada and Pallecon North America, one of the supply chain industry's foremost leaders. What impact did afternoons with his grandparents have on his leadership style? How do these personal experiences translate into professional excellence?  

Listen in and gain invaluable insights as Frank shares the intimate stories and significant moments that define his journey and continue to drive his success in an ever-evolving industry.  

Host: Shakeel Bharmal, Executive Coach – The Ivey Academy
Guest: Frank Bozzo, Vice President and General Manager, CHEP Canada and Pallecon North America

Other ways to listen:

• Apple Podcasts
• Spotify Podcasts

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About The Navigating Disruption Podcast

On The Navigating Disruption Podcast, we engage with intriguing professionals from diverse backgrounds to explore how leaders can create a more meaningful impact in these challenging times. We delve into our guest’s personal and career experiences to uncover connections between life and leadership in complexity and ambiguity. 

In an era where the pace of change and uncertainty permeates every aspect of life, predicting the outcomes of our decisions and actions is increasingly complex. This podcast offers valuable insights, reflections, and practical advice to help leaders, teams, and organizations survive and thrive amidst the disruption. Join us as we navigate these turbulent waters together. 

Note: The podcast is not produced by The Ivey Academy. Produced and edited by Shakeel Bharmal and Lindsay Curtis. Music and lyrics courtesy of Late Night Conversations 

About the Host

Shakeel Bharmal is an Executive Coach, Facilitator, and Instructor with The Ivey Academy. From his early career in sales and marketing, strategy consulting and general management to his more recent roles as a chief operating officer and leadership coach, Shakeel has always been curious about how leaders can use their humanity and professional acumen to make a positive impact on the people around them. In this podcast, as a lifelong learner, he strives to use that curiosity to serve his listeners. 

 

Episode Transcript

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I first met Frank at the Ivey academy, the Ivey Business School, during a leadership course. I was assigned as his coach for him and his cohort. And so I had exposure to him in action, and I got to get to know him quite well.

And I found that his keen insights and his approach to leadership really struck a chord. As we worked closely, I saw firsthand his commitment not just to enhancing his skills but elevating everyone around him. He stands out for his deeply human approach to leadership, and I really got to see that in action.

I knew that his approach as if he is leading a family is something that would resonate with you, and I was very pleased that he accepted my invitation to come here. So enjoy the conversation with Frank, and let's learn more about the way he leads his family. Enjoy the conversation.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

 

Welcome to the navigating disruption podcast. I'm Shakeel Bharmal, your host. As the founder of Ocean Blue Strategic, an executive coach at the Ivey Academy and a partner with the summit group, I spend my days exploring the intricacies of leadership, customer relationships and strategic thinking. Here, we connect with fascinating individuals from various walks of life to discover how we can make a more significant impact in these complex times as leaders, colleagues, and sales professionals, and more importantly, how we can grow as human beings.

Before we begin today's episode, I acknowledge that we are recording from the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabeg people, as I am a stone's throw from the meeting of the Ottawa, Gatineau, and Rideau rivers. It's important to recognize this area's rich history as a gathering place for hundreds or probably thousands of years, where these rivers meet has been a site of exchange of goods, yes, but also ideas and cultures. And they continue to flow through this-- our virtual community-- shaping our interactions and hopefully our future. Frank, how are you, my friend?

FRANCO BOZZO: I'm doing fantastic, Shaquille. How are you doing?

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Good. Good. It's great to see your smiling face. And just wanted to let you know that I've been on hiatus for a couple of years from this podcast, and so you are actually one of my first conversations back.

FRANK BOZZO: Fantastic. What an honor!

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. No. Well, I'm glad you feel that way. That's awesome. And I'll tell you it was-- there was a particular moment that we'll get into when we were interacting, where I thought to myself, you'd make a really good guest on the podcast. And then I went into hiatus, and then I thought about it again. And second time I saw you and I said, OK, when I get back going, you got to be one of the first, so here you are.

FRANK BOZZO: Excellent.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Well, let's quickly let people know how we know each other. You were taking a leadership course with the Ivey Business School, The Ivey Academy, where I'm on the coaching faculty, and I got to work with you and a small group of people through those few days on that course, as well as then follow up afterwards, and then we continued to work together a little bit. That's how we know each other.

FRANK BOZZO: Yeah. It was fantastic. It was wonderful meeting you, and you were such a great addition to my portfolio of expanding my horizons with some leadership coaching, and I'm forever grateful for it.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Awesome. Awesome. Well, let's-- well, maybe we'll touch on some of those experiences, but let's start with just-- I'd love to give you a chance just to share with the audience the basics of who you are, what you do, your role, and then we'll get a little deeper from there.

FRANK BOZZO: Sure. Yeah. So my name is Francesco Bozzo or Frank Bozzo as I'm referred to, and I've been with CHEP Canada for 21 years, and presently, I lead the Canadian business as well as the Pelican Business, which is the container business for North America. So I'm the vice president and general manager for both business units.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK. Fantastic. Give me a sense of size. How many people in your entire organization that you're responsible for?

FRANK BOZZO: Yeah. So between both organizations, between the salaried staff and the hourly staff, I would say it's probably about roughly 1,800.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: 1,800-- so that's quite a big organization. And you've been leading them through a very interesting last several years. I'm sure there's much to talk about there. First, let's dive in a little bit because I am very confident that at least for my listeners and probably for most of the world, that CHEP is probably one of the largest companies that people have never heard of, right? Unless you're in supply chain, in distribution, most people don't know of CHEP, and that's probably perfectly OK with you.

FRANK BOZZO: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. We fly under the radar, but we're-- we truly are the invisible backbone of the supply chain, and I'll share a funny story, when during the pandemic, my daughter was at school, and all the kids were talking about what their parents do for a living.

And my daughter explained it very simply to her team or to her students. She said if it wasn't for my father and his company, you would never eat. And it's because as being the invisible backbone of the supply chain, all goods-- primarily all the goods across Canada are moving in our pallets and are moving through our distribution channels. So when you walk through the commercial outfits or the retail outfits, you'll see blue pallets, and those are our pallets that we use to distribute goods across Canada.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure most people don't realize or think about as they're walking through a grocery store, walking through any kind of retail situation, ordering even from Amazon that everything they receive likely was on a pallet. And just because your size and your role in the world-- it was likely one of yours, one of your pallets.

FRANK BOZZO: That's a valid statement indeed.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Amazing. Amazing OK. So lots of-- I just love that. One of the biggest companies that people haven't heard of. So people will now start opening their eyes a little bit and looking for your blue high-quality pallets. I came across early in my career. My first job, I spent some time in a distribution center in a warehouse, and you were one of the pallets that came through our distribution center, and that was-- I don't know. It was 23 years old. So it's been around a long time. And you're all over the world, right?

FRANK BOZZO: We operate in 60 countries, and that is funny. I came across the pallets back in my youth as well, working in the grocery business while I was going to school. So that would have been back nearly 40 years ago.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Wow. OK. So that's the question of what you do publicly, what your role is. Now, the bigger question, Frank, and one that some people find hard to answer, but let's see how you think about it. How do you think about your role in the world or your role with the people you work with, and the communities you're part of? How do you describe your impact or what you try to be your impact?

FRANK BOZZO: It's interesting, Shaquille because I think for me that really plays into this whole notion of what is the legacy you leave behind. How do people remember you or the impact you made on the organization and the community you serve? So for me, I treat the business as an extension of my family. And if anyone you speak to within my organization, they would speak to that.

And I always joke and often say, you know, families don't always get along, and family has families, have disagreements, but we work together and take care of each other through difficult times. Now, having said that, we also ensure that we serve the communities around us. It's very important to me and to my team that we do that. So you have to think of opportunities with Food Bank Canada, think of opportunities for us to volunteer as an organization.

These are things that I think I instill in my team. It's extremely important that they take that seriously and that they realize that there's a significant impact that we can make on the communities that we serve. So they're all giving three days of volunteer days that are fully paid for by the company to encourage that behavior.

But what's interesting is that that behavior trickles into the office as well, and you'll see people bring things forward and opportunities for where they see needs in the community that we can work collectively together on trying to solve or at least play a bigger role in a bigger part in that. As an organization, it's really important because we're far more than just a logistics or supply chain provider. It's really about how we take care of our fellow people that are in need around us.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. So when you think about-- what does that do for the culture of your workplace? What does it do for individual people to make-- because you make that such an important part of the way you do business.

FRANK BOZZO: I think it makes them feel proud of who they work for. It definitely plays a role in our retention. We have-- our retention is very high, and the average tenure in our organization is quite high. And this isn't a group that's complacent. We're always pushing the envelope forward. We're always looking for new ways to innovate and become a better version of ourselves every day.

But having said that, they take some serious pride in who they represent, and what's funny is that it actually trickles down into their household. And what I mean by that specifically is we have some giving back events, where we include families. So they bring their kids to the events, they bring their spouses to the event. And what's often said to us by the spouses or by the children that they can't believe the unity that they see within the organization and how seriously we take this and how well we work together as a team. And that, to me, I think is core to our culture and core to what makes us successful and quite frankly separates us from a lot of the competition that's out there as well.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. I mean, let me validate that because I had a chance. You invited me to do some work with your team, a very large event, and I spent a couple of days with you, and I have to say that I can totally validate that. There was a spirit. There was a culture. There was a caring. There was a commitment to the work that you were doing as an organization that was really important.

I talked to people that had been around for years. I had talked to people that had left but had come back, and there was very clearly a strong affinity, affiliation, emotion connected to the culture of the organization, so kudos to that. I found myself quite inspired being there and really enjoyed being with your-- let's call it your family.

I didn't use that term at that time, but since you used the term-- you called it family-- and now that I think about it, it did feel that way. It did feel that people felt that way. So if family is a big part of how you define what you bring to your organization, to your roles, to your life, where do you think that came from? Was there like-- maybe let me assume. Do you see yourself-- and a little bit of a loaded question. Do you see yourself as a leader of the organization that you're part of? As the leader of the family?

FRANK BOZZO: 100%. I think for me, it's deep rooted. If I think back to my career and different leaders that have shaped and molded me in different mentors, one thing that's unique is the involvement even within my household. So my spouse-- my wife is a big part of my success and is a big part of who I am today.

But part of that is because she understands the extension of the family. She understands what's important to me within the organization. She knows people within the organization. There's very few people that work within CHEP that I don't know their spouses or their children's names. And some organizations or some leaders think that that's rare, or that's kind of-- either unnecessary or they don't have the time for it.

But it's these simple subtle things that-- for example, every single-- every single salary employee in our organization, there are birthdays in my calendar. I take two minutes to wish them a happy birthday. It's not a generic message. It's a genuine happy birthday.

And I think most leaders lose sight of the fact that those are the things that are extremely important for people. Those are the things that really make people feel that they belong in an organization, and quite frankly, they think twice about leaving the organization because they have that sense of unity and commitment within the organization.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Yeah. And it's not actually hard to do, right? To send off, pop off a happy birthday message, but the impact is so much larger than the effort that you put into it.

FRANK BOZZO: Yeah, absolutely. And it's the little things, right? Like, you know, instead of sending the message from an email, I may send it through a chat or through a personal text message. It seems more personal. It doesn't seem like it came from my assistant. It came-- they know it comes from me, right?

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting touch. So you think a lot about those little things and how they make a difference. Frank, you know, I talk a lot about nostalgia and the power of our experiences as a child and the people that we've interacted with. When you think about the way you are as a leader, and particularly this emphasis on family, can you connect the dots back to experiences and people in your childhood that kind of set the stage for this?

FRANK BOZZO: Yeah. I came from a European background. Family is important. And it's funny because I grew up where my grandparents lived next door to me, and my other set of grandparents lived with us. So I was surrounded by family all the time-- arguably too much.

But having said that, I think that how I think it translated to my youth and then into my adult life is that even as a young boy playing soccer, I was a captain of the team. As a teenager playing football in high school, I was the captain of the high school football team, and it was always about bringing people together.

And oftentimes, you know, there's a joke within some of my old high school friends, where I was involved in so many different things-- from playing the lead role of Jesus in a play to being the captain of the football team, to getting people together. And it was just that notion of being surrounded by good people.

And I think that to me is important. Life is short. So if we're going to spend a lot of time with the folks that we work with, then you need to work with people that you respect and that you care about.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. I love that. And so part of what you felt being the leader of the family was partly just to surround yourself with people that you liked and create the energy. I always say that we need to be all responsible for the energy we bring into the room.

FRANK BOZZO: Absolutely.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Expand that to the energy we bring into the family, the world-- whatever it is. That is how it sounds like you think about things.

FRANK BOZZO: Yeah. All the time, and I think for me it's not just about-- when people think of family, they think, oh, well, it must be all kumbaya, and there's no ramifications for people's decisions or actions, and it's quite the opposite. My standards and my team will tell you are extremely high. But what's interesting is that because of those standards, everyone elevates their game.

And we all operate at a very high level and very fast-paced. But when you have a common respect for the people around you, and you work that extra harder to achieve things together as a team, that sense of unity and purpose resonates within the organization, and people feel it.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. And so you talked about your grandparents living with you, and your grandparents living beside you when you were younger. Tell me what that experience was like when you came home from school. What were the things that happened?

I mean, I was a bit of a latchkey kid. And I came home, and there was nobody home. My brother was home, and as he got older, he wasn't home either. So it's very different to me to hear this. Tell me about what that was like when you came home from school.

FRANK BOZZO: Yeah. It's funny. When I talk to people about it, they think I'm kidding, but it was reality. It was very strange because I had many friends that had grandparents that lived abroad, and they had very small families. So for me, I always joke saying that I had essentially three fathers. I had three people disciplining me-- whether it was my father or one of my grandfathers. It was-- one of them would pick up the slack for the other. That was for sure.

And then the grandmothers is you have three people feeding you, right? You have your mother-- everyone's trying to feed you all the time. So it was really a matter of coming home and being surrounded by good people and being surrounded by my family, essentially. But that also forced me into a bit more responsibility than I probably would have liked back then because I think the expectation was that now that I was home and I was the oldest of my three brothers, it was, hey, listen-- why don't you-- why don't you work on this, or can you help me with this? And now, you're getting pulled in multiple directions to help out and step up kind of thing, right?

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah.

FRANK BOZZO: So more so than probably I would have liked as a young child, but it did teach me a lot about respect. It did teach me a lot about just work ethic in general. And so it was interesting. I wouldn't trade it for the world.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. So you always had somebody's eyes on you watching what you're doing, making sure you're staying on the path, right?

FRANK BOZZO: Indeed. Yeah. Always. All the time.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Were you the eldest of your siblings?

FRANK BOZZO: I was the eldest, yes.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK. So that-- like you said, responsibility of being the eldest. Lots of scrutiny. Lots of eyes on you. Yeah. That's a lot to grow up with. And I'm sure at times you were like, why me? Why do I get all this attention, and why can't I just get away with things, and why the responsibility? But now, when you think about that, how do you think about all those experiences, influences, pressures?

FRANK BOZZO: I think it shaped me to who I am today completely. Like, for me, it wasn't just about being the oldest of my brothers. It was also being the oldest grandchild. So now, you have aunts and uncles that are influential. You have younger cousins that are looking up to you. You have younger brothers that are looking up to you.

So it does shape you for sure. And I think I've always had that type of leadership mentality because-- not that it was forced upon me, but it was always-- I was always put in an environment where that was put to test. And because of that, that completely shaped who I am today.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. So I want to take that somewhere else here, where I first met you. I remember our very first interaction. I was actually on vacation with my family in the Maritimes, and we had our very first introductory conversation before that program in London, Ontario. And you were super self-aware, and I remember thinking how committed you were to your ongoing development as a leader.

And you were like transparent, honest, and open in that first conversation. You trusted me very quickly, so one, thank you for that. But one of the things that I want to reflect on is with all your responsibilities for leadership-- now, I was thinking in your corporate career, but in reality, you've been a leader ever since you were a child because you've been the eldest. And then you went and lead sports teams and that kind of thing.

So if you've been a leader for basically most of your life, how do you think about your continued development as a leader? Have you already arrived? Are you already a great leader, or is it something that's a pursuit, and how do you think about that pursuit?

FRANK BOZZO: Yeah. I don't think you ever arrive. I think if you arrive-- you feel that you've arrived, you've failed yourself and the people around you because the reality is there are things that we can learn every single day. There are ways to improve every single day.

There are people that join my leadership team that test different things about my interactions with them or that test my beliefs on certain things. So I think that for me being self-aware is key, and oftentimes, I think we fall into the hole of thinking that the way we do things is the best way of doing things, or that we believe we have the answers to all the questions.

And when we first met, I remember one of the things that you and I had talked about specifically was how do I stop stepping into situations? How do I stop providing my perspective or guiding the conversations? And I remember that when you and I first connected, one of my very first 360 feedbacks from my teams back then was that I was very directive, and that was part of my leadership style, and that bothered me to my core.

And the reason why is because I always felt now that I stepped into leading-- because I went from a commercial role to now leading the entire organization. I always felt that I wanted to be more visionary, and I wanted to provide that vision to the organization and inspiration. So what was interesting is that two years post my promotion into the role of leadership, I did the survey again, and it was funny how that completely shifted into being more visionary.

But I really feel that part of that journey was really taking the moments to pause and not inject myself into the conversation, taking the moments to solicit feedback. Oftentimes as leaders, we already know where we want to go, or we think we know where we want to go. But the problem is we don't give our teams an opportunity to express their interest, or their intent, and their willingness to want to join us on that journey.

So it's just giving them the opportunity to speak and provide their perspective. Now, as a leader, you may or may not take it, or you may take bits and pieces of it, but at least you've incorporated them in the journey. So my team never feels that they're left behind. My team never feels that there's a disconnect or there's a gap. They always feel part of the process.

So when you think about the evolution, I think for me it comes down to in life, you're always going to have different methodologies or different ways of leading, depending on the situation, and that will always test different skill sets. And that I think is really important because I think as leaders, once we acknowledge that, that gives us the opportunity to improve and create that environment for our team members.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Yeah. That is actually very remarkable the way you strung all that together because of course, I remember that initial conversation, and I was thinking to myself through that that how deliberate you were being. Like, you-- I mean, the 360 that you did with me was probably one of many that you've done over your career.

I think you mentioned that you'd done others, but you were very-- you were almost quite surgical about the feedback you were looking at, what it told you about how people see you, how you wanted people to be seen as you just articulated, and it wasn't really-- it wasn't negative. Like, this idea that you picked up that you were seen as directive didn't come across as a negative on you because you are quite a caring leader, right?

When you are a caring leader and people see that, you're family-oriented, and you want to do good things for them in the organization. That directedness doesn't come off as negative. But you yourself said that is not the way I want to come off. I want people to buy in. I want to be visionary, and I want to create that.

You deliberately worked on those things, and I watched you. I watched you work on those things. I was there when you asked for feedback about how I'm doing. And now, you're saying you've measured it again, and you've seen a big impact in the area you want to pursue and get better at. That's remarkable.

FRANK BOZZO: Yeah. It's very rewarding. And you feel as if you've accomplished something. Now, I remember-- you know-- and kudos to you because you pushed me out of my comfort zone in many ways. And one of the conversations you and I had, if you recall-- because with leading two business units, it's almost as if I had to have two different leadership styles because they were at two different maturity levels, completely different.

And I remember you and I talked about this concept of Hercules versus Buddha.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, That's right. Yeah.

FRANK BOZZO: And I've referenced that so many times because it is so true. It's when do you-- when do you bring people together for that discussion to have that collective thought versus when do you step in as a leader and say, wait a second-- time out. We need to make this decision. Let's move in this direction.

And I think that having that balance in any leadership role I think is so critical because there's often times where you are going to have to be Hercules and step in and make a decision. And there's going to be many times where you're better off being Buddha and bringing people together and having harmony and creating-- being in sync.

So kudos to you because that's a concept that, quite frankly, I wasn't really versed to before meeting you. And then something that I have often referred to with my own team-- and they get a laugh about it because they can clearly tell when I'm being more Buddha versus more Hercules, so that's the funny thing.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Amazing. Well, I can't let the moment pass without acknowledging Professor Martha Lesniewski, who also led your leadership program--

FRANK BOZZO: She was wonderful.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: --at Ivey. And that framework or that concept of Hercules-Buddha is something she developed about how leaders need to be during times of complexity, so I want to give her that shout out. But I have found it very useful, and it resonates, and I'm thrilled that it's resonated for you, and you think about it, and you carry it with you.

FRANK BOZZO: Absolutely.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Let me share a little story because obviously I spread that. I spread that framework a lot. I use it in some of my conversations with leaders, and I actually recently-- so I was using it a lot when we first met. And then it kind of got tucked away for a bit, and I brought it back out.

And I was leading a leadership session of people in the nonprofit and government world-- a leadership program that I've been working on for a while. And I brought out Hercules meets Buddha. And you know, it was interesting-- actually, quite fascinating to me-- is I got a lot of pushback on it, which caught me off guard, but I'll tell you what the pushback was. Any guesses on what the pushback might have been?

FRANK BOZZO: Suddenly they're just told what to do. They're not given an opportunity to have that in-sync conversation, I believe.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, a little bit of that, but what was the big thing that I took away? Yeah, it did resonate for some people in the audience, but other people in the audience couldn't wrap their mind around the actual archetypes. They were two males, right? Two male archetypes. And people in the group that said, you know, yeah, you're presenting Hercules as a hero, but he did a lot of bad things too.

And then somebody else said, yeah, you know, Buddha left his family behind to go and pursue a higher calling, but he left his children behind and deserted them, so he's got some-- and so it was very interesting for me to hear that because it taught me that I got to set this up properly, make sure that people recognize I'm not presenting these people as perfect. They're archetypes. But what it did remind me or lead us into a conversation of is even the best leaders, they're human and flawed, right?

FRANK BOZZO: Indeed.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: And we do have to accept each other. We're all flawed, and so there's no real perfect example of the best leader you can draw on. It's all areas shades of gray and just being deliberate and aware of how you're seeing and how you want to be seen.

FRANK BOZZO: Yeah. You're absolutely right.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, but I'm glad that resonated for you. It's something that I hold quite dearly as a bit of a aspiration. I try to always be both Hercules and Buddha. And for me, it's a little bit more work to be Hercules, but I try. I think for you it was a little bit more work to spend more time in Buddha.

FRANK BOZZO: It's funny, but in the two different business units it's the opposite. In one, I was struggling to be more Buddha, and the other was I was struggling to be more Hercules. So it's incredible how it is very much situational.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Yeah. It is. I guess--

FRANK BOZZO: Depending on the dynamic, right? But yeah, no. It's been a great tool.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Awesome. So one of the things I recall from that leadership experience we did-- this experiential learning, where we went outside. It was cold. It was winter. It was snowing, and we did some kind of physical activities. One of the things I picked up about you. And with that intention, you had told me about wanting to be less directive.

And I got to witness through these activities in the snow-- these outdoor activities that I could actually witness how you could be directive at times-- again, from a very caring way. You want to look after people. You had the answer. You had perspective on how we could solve this challenge.

But I also watched over the period, where you shared with your colleague, the other participants in the program. You shared with them what you were trying to work on. And you invited them to tap you on the shoulder or give you feedback. And we had this session of feedback at the end, where you were all supporting each other, and you were really gracious in how you accepted feedback.

When people said-- sometimes I found you a little bit directive. You took it really, really well. Is it hard? Is it hard to take feedback like that from other people? Tell me what that feels like for you.

FRANK BOZZO: Yeah. I think the business side of me would say, no, Shaquille. It's not hard at all. It's great to get feedback. And the human side of me will tell you it's very hard. It's very hard to hear that honest feedback because as leaders, whether as a father, as a husband, or as a leader of an organization, you are always striving to be the best that you can be for your people, for your teams, and your surroundings.

But sometimes, you fall short of that, or you become more directive, and you overstep. So getting the feedback helps level set you and puts things in perspective. And I think taking it-- there's two ways to look at it. One is taking it as a criticism or an insult versus the other is taking it through the lens of if you truly want to be better, then how do you embrace the feedback to understand it, dissect it, and figure out, OK, how do I do it differently moving forward?

And I think that to me is pivotal because that will completely transform how a leader views things, right? If he comes across as confrontational or comes across as-- in that manner, then you'll never you'll never accelerate. I think it comes down to how do you take the feedback, digest it, and fuck, you know it's the best path forward.

So was it hard? Yeah, it was hard for sure. Was it a bit rewarding? Because it was-- yes, please call me out on the things that I'm doing wrong, so I can see it, and feel it, and experience it. But the good thing that happened ON that discussion was the dialogue with some of those individuals post the program. And I was checking in on each other. Hey, how are things-- how are things going? Are you still-- you know, are you still holding yourself accountable to some of these Things That's kind of cool.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Oh, I didn't know that was happening. That's awesome.

FRANK BOZZO: Yeah, but it does come from a level-- it does come from a circle of trust for sure. And I think the people that love and respect you the most will give you that feedback. And you need to embrace it because at the end of the day, it comes from a good place. And you need to utilize that as a catalyst to improve your leadership style.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, love it. One of the activities that we did in that circle-- I had asked all of you to go away, prepare feedback for each other, and one of the things I gave you was develop a metaphor for each person. So when you're giving them feedback, you give them a gift of this metaphor.

You actually specifically didn't do that. So I was being directive, and you said, I'm not doing that, but what you did was so much better. You actually-- you love to read. You love to read business books, leadership books. And so you actually gave each individual a specific suggestion of a book that would be helpful to them based on what they were trying to do and work on.

I was really amazed by that. I was moved by that because it actually takes a really deep level of thinking to say, here's what I see in this person. Here's what they see in themselves. Here's something that I can provide that might help them on their journey. Is that something you regularly do? Like, read a s, and then recommend to people things that you think would be helpful to them?

FRANK BOZZO: So I've been privileged enough to be involved in some leadership programs within CHEP, and part of these leadership programs have been around developing different skill sets. And they've assigned either work from books for us to read. And oftentimes, I've purchased books for my leadership team that I thought would be useful, especially in times of turmoil or times where there's things are a bit difficult. How do we rally together and get alignment?

In that particular example that you gave about that feedback session, it was interesting because with a couple of the individuals that were in there, there were books that popped in my mind immediately in my interactions with them, and I thought, wait a second. This would be a wonderful thing for this individual to read because it would provide a different perspective and actually be aligned with what they're working on.

And oftentimes, we don't realize that the power that reading has, and it influences us. And it influences more our challenges, our thought process. It challenges us from the perspective of are we looking at things through multiple lenses, or are we just narrow minded in the way we look at things? So that's where I think some of those books really helped, and in fact, I think they appreciated that.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, I think so too. Which also leads me to believe, you know, as a coach, yeah, sometimes I provide reading recommendations to people or send them articles, but sometimes I wonder whether that behavior itself is directive because I'm saying, I've seen you. I've read this. This would be really good for you to read. But what you're demonstrating to me is that actually-- like, being directive sometimes is not a bad thing. It's just how you do it. Like, you know--

FRANK BOZZO: I think it's necessary. As a leader, there are certain times where you need to be a little more directive, right? If someone is not meeting your expectations, or if someone is going in a direction that is not best suited for the organization or for themselves, as a leader you owe it to yourself to get them back on the right on the right course.

And sometimes that takes a bit more of a directive conversation. If you always-- if you put yourself in a position where you avoid directive conversations, in my personal opinion, I don't think you'll be successful. I don't think you can function that way. But what you need to do is you need to balance it from the perspective of if you're creating a vision and a sense of purpose and people buy into that vision and understand why they do what they do, then as you're providing some directive feedback, it's not viewed that way. It's viewed more from a coaching lens.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. I really do think that's important to discuss these days because there's so much conversation-- at least in my world that I play in around executive coaching and facilitation, which has-- you got to help people come to their own answer. But as a leader, particularly a leader of a large organization with lots of things going on in the organization and in the world quite frankly, there are times that when you do know the answer or you do know something is very clear, and you have a responsibility to share that directly.

And then how you help them get through that. You can be more non-directive there, but you do have a responsibility to be clear and direct. Yeah. Awesome. I want to use these conversations in my second launch of them to learn more about different aspects of what's happening in the business world today, and obviously, in the last few years maybe kicked off by the pandemic, but maybe it was already going to happen is the significant disruptions in supply chains that are happening out in the world.

What's your take on what's happening with supply chains, and is there an end in sight do you think in getting to a place where things are a bit more predictable, things are flowing a bit easier? What's your View I assume there's no right or wrong answer here. I'm just interested in your perspective.

FRANK BOZZO: Yeah. I think over time we might get a bit more stability. I think right now in the supply chain world, there's a struggle to control cost. There's a bit of a balancing act around our dollar underperforming and understanding how does that impact the flow of goods throughout the supply chain. There's challenges with things as simple as the grocery code of conduct and getting people to all play fairly across different organizations.

But I think it just shows you that organizations now more than ever need to be more agile. They need to be more flexible. They need to understand that maybe they operate in a world before where they leverage a three player network and now they're going to bring things in-house or the opposite. I think it comes down to showing the willingness to flexible and the willingness to partner with other supply chain leaders.

So one thing that I share with my customers all the time is there are certain things that you cannot solve on your own. And there are certain things that you should bring in your other supply chain partners to help solve. And it may not be a perfect world, but it helps accelerate things. It helps us benefit each other throughout that process.

And I think more than ever, now, you're finding there's a lot more collaboration going on between retailers, manufacturers-- three pillars-- transporters. Because we all realize that we all need each other throughout this process. So instead of being so narrow minded or looking in your own backyard, you know, you need to broaden your horizon and understand what the challenges are, but then influence your teams to have conversations out in the field with some of these for like partners of yours to see how do you solve for some of these common challenges.

And that means, you know, is there an opportunity for us to do shared warehousing space? Is there an opportunity for us to use shared transportation resources and look at transportation orchestration? You know, removing empty miles. Is there a way for us to create stickiness between retail partners and manufacturers? So there's different things that we can do, and I think that when you talk about stability or predictability, consumer behavior has been so radical over the course of the pandemic that it still continues.

I'll give you an example. Walking through a retailer two weeks ago, and there was still a panic on buying water over the solar eclipse. Like, it was incredible. So this behavior of the consumer is unpredictable sometimes, which is even more the reason why you need to remain agile and flexible.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Amazing. I would have never even thought-- it would have never crossed my mind that with the eclipse coming, there would be a run on bottled water. Like, I would never make that connection. So I guess there are some people that thought this was a doomsday scenario, and we better be ready and hunker down.

FRANK BOZZO: Well, it's incredible how people interpret things, I guess, right? But yeah.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. And those kind of shifts in consumer behavior and how those catch actually affect the supply chain, and the inventories, and demand. It's-- yeah.

FRANK BOZZO: Well, listen, look what happened during the pandemic, right? In the pandemic, it was very obvious in Canada that retailers were caught with very low inventory levels because they always wanted to be just in time, and they want to maintain costs, which in a perfect world makes complete sense. I get it.

But the issue that you have in that scenario is you have a lot of pressure put on the manufacturers to hold on to more inventory. So then what happened during the pandemic was everybody was hand to mouth. Everyone was just trying to get product out their door out to the retailers.

So now, the influx of that is everyone is destocking. So retailer sales are slightly dropping, but at the same time what's interesting about that is that they're not drawing in as much because they have to get rid of older and older inventory. So there are so many things happening that I think it'll take us years before we completely level everything off. And then that coupled with the fact that our dollar is underperforming is a challenge.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, such a complex thing. One thing I'll just share, and maybe you've heard this as well from your people-- I was talking to one person on your team a couple of years ago-- it was a year and a half ago-- where they were saying that during the pandemic they really realized that what they do for a living, supporting company supply chains, was a high calling because everybody needed supply chains to work well/ whether it be needing food in the grocery store, needing home delivery, needing masks and vaccines moved around.

Is this person who said to me that I realized how important the work I do is to keeping people's lives moving forward, keeping people safe, keeping people happy. And again, supply chains are one of those things that when things go wrong, yes, everybody's arms are up in the air, but they don't realize when things are going right. It's not that it's simple. It's that there's a lot of people working together to collaborate, as you said, to make these things work.

FRANK BOZZO: Absolutely. It was interesting during that time, Shaquille because I had just taken over the business six months before the pandemic. So one thing that we did with our employees when people start to understand the importance that we play, we were having coffee calls every week to keep people engaged in the business. But it was also to share what we were doing to ensure supply chain continuity, right?

And I think it was during that time that it resonated with people as to the importance that we play and also down into their families and to their households how important he or she's job was to the organization in order to ensure supply chain continuity.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. OK. I'm going to switch gears now as we're coming into the last few minutes of our conversation. Time has gone really fast. What are you working on next for your own leadership? What's next on the horizon for you to be working on?

FRANK BOZZO: So for me, it's about effective communication. And I think it's around how do I convey the story and the messaging? So oftentimes, you know, I may have a speaking engagement, and somebody will come up and say, that was fantastic. I really enjoyed it, and I feel the complete opposite. I feel like it was a complete mess , and I didn't really articulate the message the way I wanted to.

So now, I'm hiring a coach to help me with really that leadership presence and having that level of articulation and being able to storytell because any effective leader I think has to focus on that. And it's interesting because when I talk to other leaders or other organizations-- it's not that necessarily everyone enjoys talking to the big audience.

It's not that people-- but it's necessary. It's necessary when you're talking to your team. It's necessary when you're talking abroad to different organizations. So to me, that is my single biggest investment right now in myself. It's that in particular because it really is important, especially as I continue to evolve and grow in my career and move into different roles. That's an important part of that piece.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I mean, the power of a leader's words and presence can move people to do amazing things, can move people to feel something that makes them act in ways. So I think that's amazing that you're investing time and energy, and you recognize the importance not just of the words you say but how you say them and how you deliver them in your presence. Congratulations. That's fantastic.

FRANK BOZZO: Yeah. Thank you.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Wish you well on that journey for sure. And then the last question I want to ask you is as you-- we have lots of people listening to my podcast thank goodness. What do you think is advice you'd give to an up and coming leader right now to think about as they face the future?

I think it's really important that people step outside their comfort zone and really challenge themselves. I think it's really important that people understand the importance of their actions and their words. And not only that, but I think it's important that people take the time to self-reflect on what's working and what's not working.

Oftentimes, I think as leaders, we think we're doing the right thing, but we're not soliciting the feedback to verify whether or not that's resonating with our teams. So in leadership roles, it's-- leadership roles are truly a privilege that are not given to many people. And when you've been given that opportunity, you need to take it very seriously and realize that you're impacting many lives.

So all of your actions and interactions really do count, and so my only-- I ask everybody is really, really think about how you would want to be led and what works for you, and force yourself to emulate those things. Force yourself to emulate those people that have mentored you throughout your careers. Because I think for me, that's really been the key for me.

And surround yourself with good people, and this is a great example. The relationship that you and I have would not have been possible if it wasn't for me trying different things, and trying to improve my leadership skill set, right?

Yeah. And that-- you totally drew me in in your approach to do that. So thank you for that. I'm very proud to consider now a friend and glad to have you in this conversation. So I'm going to try something new. I've never done this before in any podcast. I'm going to do the-- I hear these rapid fire questions that get a little bit kind of personal, so we'll do a two or three rapid fire questions. Are you an early bird or a night owl?

FRANK BOZZO: Night owl.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Night owl. So you stay up late.

FRANK BOZZO: I do.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: After everybody goes to bed?

FRANK BOZZO: I take care of my girls and my wife, my kids, and then I'm back online, getting things done.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK. Fantastic. What's your favorite book that you're either reading right now or you read recently?

FRANK BOZZO: Dare to Lead.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Dare to Lead. That's Brene Brown?

FRANK BOZZO: That is.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: That's Brene Brown. Excellent. OK. Good one. Favorite vacation spot.

FRANK BOZZO: Ooh, I love cruising. I love cruising.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Oh, OK.

FRANK BOZZO: It's my favorite.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK. So where's the last place you went on a cruise?

FRANK BOZZO: We were on a New Year's cruise, and we were across the Western Caribbean.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Oh, OK. I think I've done that cruise. I've done two cruises. I-- I think there's a place for them. I like the other things too, but that's awesome.

FRANK BOZZO: I'm embarrassed to tell you how many cruises I've been on.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Do you want to say?

FRANK BOZZO: 27.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: 27! All over the world?

FRANK BOZZO: Typically in the Caribbean, and there was a period of time where it was the only time that I could separate from the business. So I figured, let's go on a cruise and--

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: That's true, right? Yeah, Yeah because it's way too expensive to be online on a cruise.

FRANK BOZZO: Well, there was a period of time where it wasn't even an option. Like, it was really--

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Very good. And then I'll ask you the last question. Is there one hobby that you wish you had more time for?

FRANK BOZZO: Golfing.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK. Nice to know that there are still people out there that want to play golf.

FRANK BOZZO: I like the outdoors. I definitely-- I wish I had more time for that.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Awesome. I play once a year for a charity tournament that I sponsor, and that's about it. So that is a great way to spend time outside for sure.

FRANK BOZZO: Yeah. Enjoy the fresh air. Have a walk.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Frank, thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your generosity. I know you're juggling lots of things and just the fact that you gave me this 45 minutes, I'm very grateful. So I appreciate it, and I look forward to talking to you again soon.

FRANK BOZZO: Shaquille, thank you so much. My pleasure.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I did. Let me share with you some key things I took away from that, and hopefully you took away some different things as well. So first of all, hard to have a conversation of summary takeaways without talking about his approach to leadership as family. Frank really emphasized how he treats his team like a family, his business team like a family, stressing the importance of unity and collective care, even through disagreements.

And his family-style approach extends to community engagement with his team being encouraged to volunteer and enhance their sense of belonging with the company. Related to that, he talked about personalization and connection with his team. He really underscored the importance of personal touches in his leadership.

He mentioned the example of getting to know everybody's birthdays and not just sending a card or an email. He actually sent personalized messages by text. So those individuals in the company knew that he was thinking about them and wished them well. So this approach, as I saw it, really strengthens the bonds with his team. I was able to witness him in his organization with all his people. And clearly drives a feeling of genuine value and belonging with the team.

So I would say that the next big thing I took away was his whole focus on his own leadership and personal development. He acknowledged the never ending journey of leadership growth. He shared his commitment to continual self-improvement, and change, and adaptation. He stressed the importance of being open to feedback and learning from what others are saying to him.

In fact, seeking feedback to adjust his leadership style according to what his team needs. We talked a lot about his ongoing pursuit of becoming a better leader, how when we first started he was working on approaching his leadership of his two organizations differently based on the circumstances. Now, he's working more on his leadership presence, so kudos to Frank for always pursuing and analytically pursuing his approach to leadership, growth, and development.

Lastly, from an industry perspective, he talked about the collaboration that's happening in the supply chain. His vantage point, given CHEP's business, really does put him in the middle of a number of partners working to move goods, sometimes very critical goods, through retail and distribution channels to get to end consumers. And he has said that given the challenges we've seen in the last several years, particularly during the pandemic and the disruptions that's all caused, that he is seeing more and more now--

Companies within the supply chain being willing to work collaboratively and creativity, whether it be retailers, manufacturers, third party logistics companies, working to overcome the challenges in the supply chain as partners and not just as businesses competing with each other. So all good insights from Frank. Thank you very much. I hope you enjoyed that episode. Take care.

Thank you for listening. Whether you're a regular listener or joining us for the first time, I want you to know how much I value your support. Your engagement with our content is what keeps us going. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please take a moment to rate, review, and share the episode. It truly helps us reach more listeners like you. To learn more about my work, you can connect with me on LinkedIn.

Visit OceanBluestrategic.com, summitvalue.com, or the coaching page at the Ivey Academy. Thanks to Lindsay Curtis, who helps me edit and produce this podcast, and an exceptional thanks to my favorite Indie band, "Late Night Conversations," for providing me the music for this podcast. Discover more about them on Instagram at LNC connected and enjoy more of their music as we close out today's episode.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

I can't flow like this no more.

No, I can't make it

A fire behind my eyes

Mediation

Suffocation

It'll break me

Information in the skies

But when your eyes finally found mine

You would think that I'm defined by the chaos in my mind

I believe what I perceive is a weave tearing at the scene

And I wonder what's behind

And my ears are bleeding in the reasonism

The logic of the season, taking the pleasing from my soul and leaving me to die

And I feel the lace in delancey like racing unstationary

Animation taking me from the purpose of my life